Just saw this video: T. Boone Picken's Energy Proposal

Can diesel engines be easily converted be to propane? gas engines to propane?

One of the concerns about alternative energies is the infrastructure of distribution. Propane is already at a lot of fuel stations, would their existing connectors work to fill up a propane powered vehicle? ie our MDT's/HDT/s

In your opinion, would a propane powered truck be feasible for RV Haulers?

If the conversion is possible the bottom line would be the amortized cost of the conversion vs the amount of diesel you could buy without any conversion?

Any thoughts on a propane solution?

I'm just a newbie RV wannabe at this point and certainly no expert in such matters, but I'm guessing there's a reason why you don't see propane-powered vehicles, however, there are CNG (compressed natural gas) powered ones plying the roadways. Although even with CNG, I believe they're better suited for urban driving and not long range as would be ideal for RVing because the size (and corresponding weight) of the necessary tanks is limited and, therefore, the amount of fuel you can carry and the number of miles you could drive between CNG fill ups is limited. That's why some long-haul vehicles (semis, busses and even some trains) use LNG instead of CNG, as you can carry 600 times the volume of natural gas in it's liquid state (and it's at atmospheric pressure, not compressed, so it can't explode if the tank is ruptured as can a CNG or a propane tank, which are under great pressure, although as the released LNG warms up to air temperature (it's in a liquid state at -260F) and turns back into its gaseous state it can burn very intensely if ignited). Of sourse you need the LNG refueling stations, but they are staring to spring up along major truck routes (at the truck stops), though still very, very few in number.

This probably didn't answer your question...

Good info TMiche2, thanks for posting.

I think once you pay highway use tax on propane it is more expensive per mile than diesel or gas. They were paying folks a fortune to convert vehicles here in AZ a couple years back but the day the bounty ended most folks switched back to gas.

Now there are a lot of natural gas vehicles running about down here, mostly service vehicles, not sure on costs of that.

....THE GAS conversions cost money to buy and install....also the tank is an issue for insurance companies.....there is less BTU's in a gallon of gas than gasoline and much less than diesel fuel. We converted our school buses in a great experiment years ago and now they are all diesel because of cost of conversion and safety.....geofkaye

100% LPG/CNG will not fire by itself in a diesel engine. It will burn with diesel but will fire as a stand alone fuel only with a spark plug.

quote:

Originally posted by Fulltimer51:
100% LPG/CNG will not fire by itself in a diesel engine. It will burn with diesel but will fire as a stand alone fuel only with a spark plug.

I know for a fact that all of the diesel stationary power units can be easily converted to natural gas, they have been "flex fuel friendly" as far back as the 1960's.

The downside is the ability to carry enough LPG/LNG. And freezing up in cold weather as well as lack of convenient "filling" stations.

On a fun note we removed the valve from a full 20lb propane bottle at -40* and poured the liquid out in a bucket. ( of course we disposed of it in an environmentally safe manner)

Stan's right, after paying the required road tax then accounting for the fact that propane contains about 2/3 the BTU's of diesel fuel, it's not cost effective. It will however, leave your engine oil just as clean as the day you poured it into your engine, come scheduled change time.

......when I was a lot younger-like 35 years ago- we'd used propane to blow up tires that had come off the rim[split rims at that!]-stupid me I'm sure and GOD must still like me cuz I'm alive!....lately the craze is to use starter fluid to pop on a flotation tire in cold weather.....now they do it in hot weather......STUPID- but some do it every day and live through it!.....a 20# propane tank that is opened will blow off gas till the internal temp reaches the point where the gas is still liquid and won't boil off very fast. BTW a good friend died because of a propane explosion under a trailer when I owned a boat launch ramp and storage yard.....took him 6 weeks to die from the infections-not the burns itself....I hate propane and won't have it around me while camping.....NO how-No way!.....geofkaye- your luck may vary

Pipeline Mechanic: do I see an Oshkosh Prime Mover in Blue next to you?....I have many pieces of those trucks in the Junk Yard near Ft. Knox....need any parts let me know-but shipping is almost impossible for most cuz they weigh a ton....geofkaye

JM
My family has been in the butane/propane business since 1939. I am very experienced and knowledgeable about many parts of the business. I was also a Ford, Lincoln-Mercury, and Toyota dealer for over 20 years.

Diesel engines are relatively easy to convert to dual fuel (mixture of propane and diesel). Gas engines that were carbureted were easy and cheap to convert to propane. The newer electronically controlled fuel injected gas engines are much harder to convert. One reason is the auto manufactures will not cooperate with the two main propane equipment manufacturers.

The National Propane Gas Association has tried for years to get the US Gov to subsidize propane as a motor fuel. Our lobby isn't nearly as powerful and the farm lobby. We spend hundreds of millions of tax dollars on corn when propane would be much cleaner and cheaper in the long run.

In summary a propane powered vehicle would be much cleaner but have less power and less mpg than gasoline. At present there is little or no cost advantage to propane as a motor fuel.
Natural gas can be used as a motor fuel as either compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquid natural gas (LNG). Due to the technical problems of storing and handling LNG it appears that CNG is more feasible for a average consumer.

I think the Pickens plan makes a lot of sense and for that reason I doubt that Congress will move toward adopting any of its provisions.

In my opinion propane is much safer to handle and store that gasoline. Most gasoline tanks on vehicles are plastic these days. Propane tanks are almost 1/4 inch thick. You can almost stick an ice pick through the average aluminum gasoline tanker. Propane tankers evolved in hwy crashes rarely leak any product at all. The generator in my RV is propane. I could never sleep with a plastic gasoline tank under my bedroom. When evolved in a fire it is really apparent which is the safest.

Of course some knowledge and common sense are required to use propane safely.

Hey guys...
Sorry for my day-dreaming in biology courses...but can you answer me this: Do you have liquid gas at sub-zero temps and a compressed state (gas vapors)come from high pressure? Have I stated that correctly? The discussion above about carrying 600 x as much LNG as CNG...got me wondering why not deal with it in a liquid stage..

Bob

Good discussion thanks for the input.

BWhite, yes, LNG (Liquid Natural Gas - not to be confused with LPG) is regular natural gas that is super cooled to a cyrogenic temperature of -276F. and is not stored under pressure (just slightly above atmospheric pressure to minimize natural "boil off" and maintain it in the liquid state). The storage container is very robust and well insulated (means heavy), which is why as a vehicle fuel it's best confined to large vehicles (big truck, trains, etc.), but the fact that it's volume is reduced by 600 times means you get a lot more than a similar sized tank for the alternative - Compressed Natural Gas or CNG which, as its name implies, is stored under great pressure.

The fact that CNG is still in its highly flammable gaseous state (and not an inflammable, super-cooled liquid state) and under pressure means it is potentially more explosive if the tank is ruptured catastrophically compared to LNG, but LNG, once released from its storage starts to warm up to air temperature and turns back to its gaseous state and that gas vapor can ignite too (but not the portion still in liquid state), which warms up the rest of the escaping LNG which tuns to gas, etc., etc., and that's why an LNG fire can burn very hotly but not cause an explosion unless the escaping gas collects in a confined space and then gets ignited - a typical natural gas explosion occurs. Also, since LNG is at cryogenic temperatures, it will instantly crystallize normal materials that it touches.

All that aside, LNG use has proven very safe for over 40 years of worldwide operation, and is gaining in popularity, but not with the traditional automobile crowd, which is better served by CNG. As but one of many examples of its routine use as a vehicle fuel (and a testament to its safety), the LAX airport buses are LNG fueled.

.....'course- there is the discussion of the gas tankers in harbors around the USA and how they are protected from towel heads etc....but all in all- if the ship in Boston Harbor gets hit there will be NO Boston Harbor.....on the water a accidental opening isn't very likely unless it is by an airplane- but in a vehicle on the expressway the odds are far greater....that why school buses are mandated to be diesel in Ohio at any cost.....some states have different laws.......gasoline and gas bused for school use are obsolete and a insurance night mare....geofkaye