Mark... I agree. The wife is taking our Peterbilt 330, the Londonaire and we are going on a Vacation.....Happy RVing..!!! Jim A.

I figured let this one "simmer" for a day or two before I "clarified my thinking"
First, this is an open forum and as long as I follow forum rules and Mark's rules I don't need anybody's permission to post here.
Second, by no means do I suggest that I want government interference in what we can pull with what. After all I pulled for a year 22,000 lbs Royals with a 1 ton pickup. Stupid, yes, but during that year I had no other option. What I merely suggested is that in absence of 'ANY OVERSIGHT' the industry has been getting away with murder in terms of quality, safety and innovation. Those three things don't have to cost a lot or increase the price of the rigs. Every time Detroit would come up against a mandatory "this or that" they would bitch to the high heaven and tell us how much it was going to increase the cost of the car. Then they would find a way to incorporate the changes and increase the cost of the car minimally if at all. You have to be a member of the "speak no evil, hear no evil and see no evil" monkey trio not to realize that the stuff coming out of the RV industry (with few exceptions) is of worthless quality. There is a reason why used rigs drop so precipitously in their value on the used market.
Thirdly, I don't engage in speculation, opinions or theories for the sake of flapping my jaws unless I had a personal experience in the matter. The "no brakes" test I suggested above I "performed" three times in my 35 year RVing career. I had two brake controllers fail on me with the 8,000 pound trailer. Once going down the hill doing 70 mph, which caused the fifth to want to come around and jackknife. I had to accelerate to even higher speed to stop it and then gently "tap" the brakes on and off to bleed the speed off. Second, I lost a brake controller in a raging rainstorm on New Jersey Turnpike. There was no option except to pull over into a rest area, unhitch and find another controller. I lost brakes once with the 12,500 trailer (bad connection). Luckily I was still close to home. First red light convinced me that with this weight the pickup brakes were useless and the prudent thing to do was to turn around and go home while keeping at least 200-300 feet margin to the nearest car in front of me.
Lastly, I didn't buy an HDT to puff my chest, gloat and sneer at other RVers. After all it's an old truck with 850,000 miles, worth significantly less than a new F-350 pickup. I had to put substantial amount of money and labor into it to make it do what I want it to do. I bought it because it's a right truck for the large trailer I want to pull and do it safely for my family and others.
If my opinions upset those who want to pull a Newmar with a pickup based on some BS from their RV salesman they'll just have to get over it.

hjs

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Henry, I'm glad to read your input. I can always learn much more from the guys who done it that those who think they could do it. Keep the posts comming...

John

Thanks John. Just doing little "cross pollination" between forums in case you guys missed it on the HDT side. Now don't let anyone get their hair up! This is a hoot!

quote:

Doing little patent search, came across this "beauty"!!
But before I show you the "beauty" let me preface this with a general statement that you guys have not been very nice on various "other" RV forums, touting your HDTs and generally making owners of lesser pullers feel slighted. Even our own MDT forum members on occasion told you to bug out and stick to these pages. You have been particularly merciless on the pickup owners to a point where I expect number of them to acquire the inferiority complex and seek professional help akin to the cavemen in the Geico commercial.
Well, now you can set your sights on a new target. The US Patent Office has actually issued a patent (a real patent # 5,160,157) where the "inventor" actually shows you how to turn your daily commuter into a fifth wheel puller. I am not s$%#@#$ you!!! Take a look!!!!

Yes sir re, under the trunk lid of you Ultima, Malibu, Cadillac or Lincoln (for you upscale commuters) you can mount this hitch and on weekends and vacations go exploring America with your fifth behind your daily driver!

Now the inventor "has seen the light". We all know the "pain" of moving up. Moving up to these enormously expensive F-450 or F-550. Moving up to this ungainly MDTs. Moving up to "enormous" HDTs. The pain of persuading th DW's who are feeling for a fever on your foreheads. Now you can move "down". As the inventor states in his justification for the "invention", "For those who are 'RELUCTANT' to move up to a pickup truck this presents an option to use a passenger car to pull a fifth wheel and have transportation after arriving on the site"!! Bravo!!!!!!

This is an enormous opportunity for someone who wants to pay royalties to the inventor and build this sucker. Can you imagine the RV salesmen glee at the prospect. You know they are quite willing to sell you any rig if you show up with your F-350. Now if you show up in your Ford Taurus they'll be able to tell you, "YOU CAN PULL IT WITH THAT"!!!!!!

hjs

hjs

I sure hope the SUV mod I posted the other day doesn't violate this patent!

http://escapees.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/123605761...381042852#6381042852

Stan, your original post came to my mind the minute I saw this patent. Sort of like deja vu, "this guy must have seen this patent, before hitching up".
But, I don't think he will hear from Bull, Houser & Tupper, the inventor's attorneys, since he didn't use the trunk to mount the hitch but the trunk lid.
However, this presents a "new opportunity" for this other "inventor". I am sure Bull, Houser & Tupper will be more than happy to take his money and file cross patent to include trunk lids besides the trunk floors as a suitable mounting areas for this "invention".

hjs

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hjsdds,

Reading the description, he actually put a lot of effort into devising a coupling device that would interact between a 5'er pin and the ball of his hitch so that only the ball would be sticking up through a hole in his trunk lid when raised into it's upper deployed position.

This guy is from Sardis, British Columbia; not a place normally noted for producing "Fruitcakes"!

It isn't the size that dictates an MDT or HDT, it's the weight.

I have a towing capacity tool (MS Excel Spreadsheet) that might help you wade through the huge number of permutations that arise when forcing a marriage of a trailer to a truck.

Found here: Towing Capacity Tool

over all this I've been hearing about the 450 and 550 . I live up here in Canada Eh! and have been thinkng about the Dodge 4500 diesel dually What are the opinions about it ?

Instead of offering an opinion I'll offer you a simple method to evaluate it yourself.

Park a 3500 Dodge, the 4500 you are looking at and a FL60 or IH4000 next to each other. look at each component on the 4500 and see which of the others it is closest to.

Remember you can make a Mini Cooper into an MDT with a spring swap. All that counts for that tax rating is raw weight carrying capacity. Not towing, not stopping not durability or comfort.

....one can replace everything except ones SELF...that is why I have a HDT and car hauler trailer.....everything is insured-paid for and photographed along with the original receipt.......geofkaye

One of the problems I have with the MTD Forum is that it's actually the IH forum. Everytime I have ask questions about my Chevy 4500, I get all these comments that the 4500 is not really a MTD and makes me feel like dirt for even posting here. Every MTD has it's limits. Currently with my motorcycle trailer behind the 5'er, I am towing 18.5K and I gross out at 30K. I am at my limit. Maybe alittle beyond. But I believe I would not feel safe pulling a 22K Teton with a toad behind with a IH4700. For that you need a HTD. IH guys need to look under a 4500. It has nothing from the 3500 except the engine and trans. which truck makers have done for years. Big difference in gearing. My brother had a dump truck with a 427 but is sure wasn't a race car. Why can't we all just get along. So remember, MTD's have limits, choose the right one for you. BTW...with my Duramax/Allison I can get my oil changed anywhere, not just truck centers. Let the flaming begin. John

quote:

But I believe I would not feel safe pulling a 22K Teton with a toad behind with a IH4700.

Your 30K is well within the specs for an IH 4000 series. Most IHs and their like are rated for around 60K combined weight and weigh between 13k and 16k themselves. Ones with a very light duty rear axle, light duty transmission or a small engine may only be rated for the low 40s combined.

Sure a bigger truck would pull your load better than a smaller one and with the prices of some of the larger trucks they do deserve a look. If one meets your needs you'll get a lot more truck for less money than a small IH or FL. Some of us looked and decided that the IH was a reasonable compromise among money, size and towing ability, others went larger or smaller. The only ones I have issues with are the ones that went smaller than their load and safety dictated.

I've never understood how folks keep looking at a trucks weight carrying tax classification and relating it to a truck's ability to pull and stop a fiver. Durability enters into picking a truck too.

I'm not so sure about service locations being a big deal, my IH had over 900 local same-brand dealers across the country so I never had much problem getting anything serviced. Most off brand shops that deal with bigger trucks could have serviced me with no problem too. With a 12,000 mile oil change service interval it wasn't hard to be near an IH dealer when I needed a change.

Getting an oil changes for the engine are no big deal anywhere since it uses a standard sized drain plug and common oil, the non-big-truck place might not have a filter in stock and that would be a problem for some folks. Many bigger truck owners carry sets of their favorite brands of filters since different dealers stock different brands.

The transmission again uses standard fluid and standard fasteners so the non-big-truck dealer having the proper filters in stock would be the only issue. I always carried a spare set since the Allison Gold Series could be hard to find when they first came out. However at 75,000 mile filter change and 150,000 mile fluid change service intervals it really wasn't a big deal.

Coolant filter, fuel filter and air filter stocks would be an issue at a non-big-truck dealer but again carrying a spare works for the first two, the air filter is pretty big and rarely needs changed. I did swap mine out at 100,000 miles even though it still looked good and showed a very low restriction.

Rather than feeling guilty about posting in the MDT forum you might want to consider how guilty you'll feel if your "at my limit. Maybe alittle beyond." truck can't safely control your load in an emergency.

Yes, every truck has its limits and looking at the limits rather than a number created by the tax man (the MDT or HDT classification) is a really good idea.

Stanley...most of your comments I agree with. I just get upset that every time someone asks questions about a Ford or Chevy, all the IH guys jump in to say how bad they are. IH is a good truck. I did not say anything bad about IH. Would buy one today. I got a great deal on my truck and trailer years ago and the Chevy has not given me any problems. And when I say I am at my limit, I mean my limit, not the truck's. I would just feel safer with a HDT. Again you guys are missing the point. Ford and Chevy MTD's have a place in the RV world. Mine has a pickup bed so it still looks like a pickup and is great for hauling other things. Just had a friend buy a new 4500 for $55K. Can't touch a new IH for at least $20K more. Maybe I am wrong. As stated before, you need to crawl under a 4500 and see just how big the rear end and frame is. IH's are great trucks, never said they were not. Just have a problem with people who think there are not other trucks for RV's. I don't ask questions on this forum about my Chevy because I always get flamed for calling my 4500 a MDT. I am a member of the MDT BOF group but then they take all who apply. Why are you IH guys so touchy? At least you guys should like the Fords since IH makes the engines for them. John

We liked our 4500 chevy, But, gcwr was only 24k. It was not a very capable truck for the trailer we were pulling. I am glad the one you have is working well for you. Mine did not. It over heated pulling steep grades, got 6.5 to 7 mpg, and road like it had solid rubber tires.it did have air ride suspension and seats. We traded trailers and the new trailer weighed 17k empty. The 4500 grunted and strained infront of the weight. The disc brakes were not enough to stop the trailer as well as I wanted but were sufficent. There is no comparison to the 4500 and the IH or M2. Just no comparison in comfort, safety, or any other aspect you want to compare. After having both the 4500 and an M2, I am sorry I bought the 4500. Hind sight is 20/20. Just my own experience, and not meaning to put down anyone or their truck.