Seeing the oil prices and diesel I despaired of seeing any real headway in hydrogen direct fueling for many years.

But it appears that BMW engineers are tired of waiting too.

They have designed a successful engine for their 7 series of cars that can seamlessly switch between Hydrogen and gasoline fuels.

Not hydrogen fuel cells, but direct combustion of hydrogen.

Next year they will test a fleet of them. Go here for the full story:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6637142.html?tag=nl.e501

The only thing holding back hydrogen vehicles is the lack of fueling stations. But if you look up Hydrogen fueling stations you may be surprised that more than two or three are open today, and more planned for the future.

I have written about this before here in the forums.

The old "Hindenburg Effect" which describes an inordinate fear of the fuel blowing up, has been disproven time and time again. In fact, a breach of a Hydrogen tank would dissipate very quickly in tha atmosphere as opposed to a gasoline leak pooling the liquid and vapors on the ground allowing time for ignition.

Direct burning of hydrogen yields water vapor and CO2 as by-products. No toxic gasses. However, we would probably need to develop a "cleaner" similar to the catalytic converter to reduce CO2 levels due to concerns about the "Greenhouse Effect."

However, current gas and diesel engines produce as much if not more CO2 than Hydrogen fueled vehicles, so the point is moot, as we get rid of all the other toxic combustion by products with hydrogen fuel.

Several years ago I asked an engineer with a company that produced hydrogen fueling stations, about the size of a VW bus designed for homeowners which were way too expensive at that time, how long would it take, given unlimited investment by government and the businesses involved (Car manufacturers, fuel stations, hydrogen production manufaturers,) for them to produce a hydrogen production and fueling station that would cost little enough so a neighborhood could easily buy one to fuel all their cars with no dependence on oil, imports, or even gas stations. His answer? 2 Years.

Hydrogen can be produced with just water and electricity. If they can develop a solar source sufficient to run the elctrolysis and compression process, we would have virtually free fuel, and could have it in our own backyards.

I know it sounds like science fiction. I also know the oil companies keep promoting hydrogen production from fossil fuels, but I suspect they see what I do for the near future, and hope to corner the fueling part of that business and keep the refineries open with fossil fuel dependence.

I don't think that attitude will last regardless of the doom and gloom messages that we will run out of oil in the next few years.

The cost, at the whims of International Relations and politics, combined with big oil interests, are not going to be acceptable excuses for much longer as the public becomes more informed.

Just my opinion, from following the developments for the past 5 years or so.

IMHO, just a matter of time, sooner than later I hope.

Why an RV action item? Because if we vote for folks pushing it, we may just find our fuels no longer prohibitive to traveling as we please.

And no one will point to us and SUV or hummer drivers as polluters or wasters of a limited resource.

The sun has been running on hydrogen for few years with no problems right?

I'd love to see this happen.

One question... How the heck do you get CO2 out of burning Hydrogen?

There is no carbon in the combustion process so the product should be just plain old water...

George

George,
I stand corrected! I was thinking of a fuel cell in a hybrid, and using fossil fuels to produce hydrogen instead of electrolysis, I know better.

"If fossil fuels, e.g. coal, oil or natural gas, are used to generate the electricity, there is no advantage over using the fossil fuels directly. Indeed you still get all the CO2, and there is a considerable loss of energy."
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html

You are absolutely right!

Thanks for chiming in. As usual, your posts are right on track.

The only by product of direct Hydrogen combustion is water vapor.

See what happens when I don't post for a long time and re-review before posting?

George, thank you!

Other than the old timer's moment on CO2, the rest is spot on. ( I just did a quick review of the field to be sure )

So I'll revise.

If the oil companies are allowed to produce hydrogen from fossil fuels, the above quote is accurate.

Solar production is the only way to put an end to pollution and still drive vehicles with range and speed. We are there, or pretty close in being able to use solar.

Good catch bud!

I think its a great idea whose time has certainly come. Just think how few oil changes you would need if your only combustion by-product is a little bit of water. And a completely clean exhaust!!!

I've seen quite a bit written where they forecast making the hydrogen at home by electrolysis, rather than going to your local Hydrogen service station.

Sounds like an interesting model, and a big change as you can't make gas or diesel at home, bio-fuels excepted of course...

George

I would be very hepped up about this except for two things.
1. GM just had a news report today that it is going ahead with hydrogren after getting out of the electric battery technology 3 years ago.
2. The Japanese auto makers are staying with the hybreds.
With GM vs Japan as far as innovations goes, always go with Japan.

George,
Take this product:
http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c051114.html
Add solar power to make it work instead of Natural gas or propane, and think of the possibilities. How about adding it to an RV boondocking near a water source?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11/hsub2sub_genera.html

It is real, but some folks are dragging their feet. Now who could that be??? hmmmm?

Duke,
Hybrids with Hydrogen fuel cells will still need hydrogen fueling.

Honda in my post above is toying with home fueling stations.

Here is a list of hydrogen fuel stations that shows it is happening.
http://www.fuelcells.org/info/charts/h2fuelingstations.pdf

It is happening.


In a few years, it might be wise to sell oil stocks and futures, I hope!

George,
I agree on biofuels being the only other alternative for home fuel production. However, even if they made a turnkey processor, you still have to go out and get the oils, used or not.

Hydrogen just needs electricity, and water. We all have water and electricity no? If developed I don't think solar powered electrolysis would be far behind.

The really bad thing for the oil companies is we could buy a home processor and use it with no need for pipelines, (other than our water lines) refineries, or even gas stations.

Your comment on almost no contaminants in the lubricating oil sure is right on, never occurred to me before.

Check these links out for a new solar technology. If this comes about, solar powered electrolysis would be very feasiable.

http://www.ezinearticles.com/?New-Solar-Technology---Ho...hic-Tuning&id=152614

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=16736&ch=biztech

Prism Solar Technologies is the leading company in the holographic tuning field. The company is a subsidiary of Direct Global Power, and is pursuing the advancement of the technology through an exclusive rights license from the Illinois Institute of Technology

Steve

Steve,
You're fairly new here with 4 posts even though you registered in January.

Thank you so much for posting your tag on with links to this thread.

Your post is a perfect example of why we need all our folks to contribute, as no one of us can track it all.

A belated welcome to our forums, and a big thank you for your contribution. I never even heard about holographic solar!

RV
I made this post;
Posted July 25, 2006 03:44 PM

This is interesting
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=16736&ch=biztech

I am going to wait and see what happens with this holographic solar tech. before I invest in a system on the 5er, TTYL

Yeah Dub!
The only problem is if they deploy in a reasonable time. I have found that calling the company and asking can give a more realistic time frame. Give em a call, see what they say and get back to us.

On Edit: Here is their site:
http://www.prismsolar.com/
I just left a message with their CEO for info. I'll post back if I get a callback with more info.

It is really easy to convert an engine to run on hydrogen, so no accolades for coming up with a cross fuel car. It was done years ago.

It would be nice is hydrogen always combusted into H2O but it doesn't and the partial combustion is acidic, worse that the carbon-monoxide we get today. That sis why the fuel cell is so desirable because it does produce almost 100% H2O.

To carry a reasonable amount of hydrogen to take a normal trip, the fuel tanks would have to be pressurized to 1000 psi. Is doesn't matter what is in a 1000 psi tank if it should rupture, it will do damage.

And there is the joy of hydrogen burning without a flame. Imaging sitting at a fuel pump and getting hot with no indication of why.

Like it or not, hydrogen is still a dangerous fuel

The big issue is where to get hydrogen. The primary source is natural gas. The process uses a lot (a lot) of electrical energy and the by products are more pollution causing that anything else we do today.

The true about things to good to be true is that that are not true.

The energy delivery companies (today gasoline,. tomorrow who knows) have the infrastructure to provide delivery services. They don't care what needs to be delivered. They are researching every possible fuel option. If there was a cheaper way to fuel our vehicles, the energy companies would be offering it because it would cut their cost structure.

The truth is that gasoline, second only to diesel fuel has the highest BTU energy per gallon of fuel. All these other alternative tell you how much cheaper the fuel is per gallon but they don't tell you how many gallons you need to use to equal one gallon of gasoline.

Do we need to find different sources of energy, yes. Perhaps we first should use the sources we have better. It is hard to fuel aircraft with electrical energy. Cars are pretty hard to. So we should not be using petroleum fuels in stationary uses. Leave those for electrification.

I have read about this several times and picked up on car manufacturers are considering every options thats out there. What I don't see happening is us getting to drive free or close to it. I just don't believe the oil co's or car manufacturers are going to give up all that income.I know there are lots of things that could and should happen but I still don't see any real big brake for anyone who drives a vehicle.Prove me wrong and I'll by the drinks.

RV - As a past engineer on the Saturn rocket program, which used LH2 as fuel, I can testify that that stuff can be dangerous. A leak ignites and burns without any red flame. You can't see it. We used to check for leaks with a broom. If the broom cought flame, there was a leak. In addition, hydrogen causes embrittlement in some metals and will leak thru many of the common seals. Tough stuff to handle.